Are the State Lands in and around Howard Mesa next?

From: Red Lakes Estates HOA <redlakesestateshoa@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2023 11:31 AM
Subject: Fwd: Summary and Notes, DFFM Meeting Held Friday Dec 8

Hello Chris...see all these details and attached Phase 1.  Let me know what you think and any questions.

Debra

Robert Grossman President
Debra Grossman, Secretary
Red Lake Estates Unit 1 POA

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Red Lakes Estates HOA <redlakesestateshoa@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Dec 9, 2023, 7:48 PM
Subject: Summary and Notes, DFFM Meeting Held Friday Dec 8
To: Robert Grossman <redlakesestateshoa@gmail.com>

Hello all neighbors and attendees of the meeting. These are notes and impressions from Debra and I. If, in your opinion, we have mischaracterized something or left out important details, please let us know. We do not have a recording of the meeting. We can include your comments in a future message to the neighborhood. 

There are two attachments to this message. These are the TOP SECRET planning documents that Debra was able to obtain through a freedom of information act request. They were retrieved by secret service agents and hand delivered before the meeting.

Just joking. 

But seriously, they were extraordinarily difficult to obtain. We spent many weeks working on the retrieval of these documents and their release was only approved by the Governor's office the day before the meeting. 

Meeting Minutes, Notes and Impressions

We had our long awaited and anticipated meeting with the Department of Forestry & Fire Management (DFFM) at the Best Western Hotel in Williams. Unfortunately, we only had 1 hour and the DFFM Team that arrived was in a huge hurry to pack up and leave after 60 minutes. 

There were about 9 DFFM Officers with Mr. Richard Miller leading the presentation. We had about 25 concerned property owners that included Board Members from 4 Property Owners Associations (POA's). We also had Wendy Howell of Williams-Grand Canyon News whose presence was beneficial and will help get this information to the public. Every seat was taken and many were standing against the wall. Everyone was polite, civil and asked important questions. We believe they learned that the property owners are educated, informed and are paying serious attention to what is going on around us and in our neighborhood. 

Mr. Miller began the meeting by covering graphs, charts and data that seemed intended to scare us into believing that if they don't take the extreme measures that are similar to what took place to our neighbors to the south near Hoctor and Espee, then we will all die in a catastrophic deadly fire. He quickly discredited and discounted their own Wildfire Risk Assessment Portal called AZWrap that is found on the DFFM website and basically told us we should ignore the results that show our area to be a Category "2-3" for Low to Moderate Risk for Wildfire with 2 to 3 foot flames. If he doesn't believe in the results, then why is it still up and active? If it is true that our area is a Low Risk for fire, then why are they planning such an extreme heavy handed prescriptive land treatment? Do the symptoms warrant the prescription? 

Mr. Miller and his Team took turns giving us information about catastrophic fires and used up almost 30 minutes. Then we had the remaining half hour to ask questions. Several from the audience asked important questions ranging from roads, flooding potential, impact on wildlife, property values, petroglyphs and slash piles that seem to never get cleaned up. There were other questions about land type conversion from juniper-pinyon forest to grassland and the possibility that the soil in the area might not support such conversion. They had no answer to that question though they were hopeful that the conversion might succeed. They had no plans for what to do should the land type conversion fail. We will have to wait several years to learn if our neighborhoods will be surrounded by dirt or by a treeless grassland. 

The DFFM also discussed their planning for Red Lake Estates and the surrounding area known as Phase 2 and 3. Phase 2 and 3 will be similar to what they did in Phase 1. After viewing the extreme level of land clearing in the Phase 1 area, Debra asked if anyone had inspected the quality of work done and if they saw how many Pinyons had been destroyed. They acted as if this is what they were expecting and that they approved of the job that was done. One Agent appeared to be inappropriately smiling.

In regard to fire mitigating measures several attendees expressed agreement with reasonable and appropriate fire mitigation measures, selective thinning and creation of defensible spaces especially alongside our access road so that fire trucks can drive through safely. Debra stated that we are against the extreme and heavy handed methods being used to clear the land and create treeless prairies. 

Grassland Fires

Several attendees asked about noxious grasses that can potentially ignite and spread fire. The Agents that answered said they hoped that the grasses growing in the open spaces would not be as fire conducive as the Pinyon and Juniper and they said they weren't sure. (Well, we hope they will do their research and inform themselves concerning how grassland fires have been the dominant reason for deadly fires in the US.) Debra mentioned to the Agent who said he was from Maui how the horrific and catastrophic deadly fire in Maui was caused by open grasslands but received no response.

Wildlife

The DFFM didn't appear to be concerned about the wildlife, except for creating more grasses for Elk, Deer and Cattle. We mentioned the decline in Pinyon Jays and they just smiled. Many property owners expressed how they enjoyed seeing wildlife in our area and how they are concerned that the wildlife will diminish once the tree cover is removed. The DFFM didn't seem to be very concerned.

Juniper Trees

It was noticeable in their answers that the retention of Pinyon Trees is favored over the Junipers. Debra mentioned that the native Juniper Tree is a Nursing Tree to the young Pinyon and that they have a codependent symbiotic relationship. Without the Juniper, you don't have the Pinyon and vice-versa. They did agree to this relationship but remained adverse to the Juniper.  (Note: While it is true the Juniper can be encroaching, it truly is native to the Kaibab Plateau, has many benefits and has been here for thousands of years, erroneously called Cedars when technically they are members of the Juniperus genus with useful berries that attract many birds and other wildlife.) One property owner stated that he felt the Juniper was an intrusive weed and had no problem with their eradication. 

On my property I must have several hundred young Pinyon Pine trees growing. Every one of them, without exception, are growing from under a Juniper tree. If I were to remove all my Junipers, I would have no young Pinyon trees growing anywhere on my lot. How exactly does the removal of Junipers favor the Pinyons if they preferentially grow under the Junipers? The DFFM had no answer to that question.

Petroglyphs

Questions were presented regarding protection of petroglyphs in the foothills of Cedar Mountain. Those that answered did say those sites would be identified and protected. There was no indication how those areas would be identified or what budget would be used to fund that work.

Property Values

We mentioned that we spoke to expert appraisers and seasoned real estate brokers in the area and asked how massive removal of our trees would impact property values. We were told that home buyers love trees! When homes are listed for sale, the listing all read "heavily treed". We shared data with them, in writing, that neighborhoods with trees are more valuable than neighborhoods without trees. They didn't seem to care, just inappropriately smiled.

Timing

The Agents informed us that many trees in our area would likely be removed around the spring or summer of 2024 and that we would have a chance to meet again. On our way out, many attendees informed the Agents that we love the trees in our neighborhood and that we don't want to see large areas of grassland with only a few trees. Let's hope they were listening.

Unasked and/or Unanswered Questions

How many trees will remain?

There were several questions that were not asked as the DFFM people were rushing off after the one-hour meeting time had elapsed. In my mind, an important question is: how many trees do they intend to leave?

The planning documents for the Phase 1 tree removal conducted just south of us states that their intention is to “retain individual and small groups of up to 3 pinyon pine trees with irregular, variable spacing ranging from 60 to 150 feet (average of about 100 feet) measured from other retention trees.” This statement is from Section 1, Paragraph b. Iii. of their planning document. 

This spacing, an average of about 100 feet between very small groups of up to three trees, will allow only one, possibly up to two, small groups of trees per acre. For those of us living on one-acre lots this will be easy to visualize. Walk out onto your property and imagine one group of 1 or 2 or 3 trees and bare dirt everywhere else. This is what they propose to do. If they did that to my property, I wouldn’t care about any fire mitigation as I wouldn’t live there any longer.

How will they pay for road damage?

Several questions were asked about damage to our roads. They seemed completely unaware that these are privately maintained roads and that we receive no state, county or local government funds for this maintenance. Damage to our roads following their visit to our neighborhood could come from two sources. 

One, once all the vegetation that holds the soil in place is removed, we could experience catastrophic flooding in the next monsoon season and during the spring snow melt. The DFFM has no funding and no plan to deal with this. 

Two, the passage of extremely heavy construction equipment to the several tree removal sites can cause failure of our road surface. The DFFM has no funding and no plan to deal with this. 

Either of these two scenarios could result in our complete inability to access our neighborhood. The DFFM has no funding and no plan to deal with this issue.

Flood Mitigation Measures

Several property owners in attendance asked questions about flood mitigation measures to prevent road and property damage. Their tree removal project does not include any work to prevent or reduce flooding. Debra informed the DFFM that we had a water drainage study performed on our neighborhood by a civil engineering firm and that she had spoken to the civil engineer that did the study who told us that if a large number of trees were removed, we would likely expect to see water and debris flow downhill to St. Francis and possibly block the road.

Apparently, the DFFM performs no flood mitigation after altering water flow on the state land they treat. Again, the DFFM has no funding and no plan to deal with this issue.

Cleanup of Dead Trees and Other Material

The DFFM said Phase 1 Red Lake Area is still under process but will be completed in under one month. 

When asked if that meant that the Phase 1 cleanup would be completed in that one month time frame they admitted that it would not and that they consider it complete without cleanup. 

The DFFM seems to have no plan and no budget to clean up the area following the removal of all the trees. The DFFM does seem to be hopeful that neighboring homeowners will remove the material at the homeowners expense.

Several people asked why an agency so concerned about fire mitigation would leave the site covered in flammable material. Their response was that this dead and dry material is not really that flammable. If it is not that flammable when dead and dry, then living and green, it would probably prevent fires. But, once again, the DFFM has no plan and no funding to remove that material. I hope we all like the way it looks because we might be looking at it for years to come. Imagine the dead tree debris left behind when the roads in Red Lake Estates were built, multiplied by several hundred times, lining the state land in front of your property.

Future Issues

Phase 2 and 3 Project Reports and Plans

We will watch for the completion of these and will formally request them once they are ready to be completed. Once we receive these reports, we will share them with everyone. We will set a date for us all to meet and discuss and set a date for everyone to meet with the DFFM in a large facility for a longer time. 

This is our chance to keep this issue at the forefront of many eyes and ears. Perhaps through our continuing efforts, we will be able to influence the DFFM to deliver effective and reasonable fire mitigation measures that will enhance the safety of our neighborhood without impacting our property values, increasing flooding, and affecting wildlife that we all enjoy to see. 

For those of you that prefer moderate and effective measures instead of the destruction we've seen happen to our neighbors to the south of us, please contact us to add your names to our letters to the DFFM, AZ State Land Department and to the Governor. We will circulate these letters before they are sent for your suggestions and signatures.

We will not be complacent or silent. 

Furthermore, should you see any pink ribbons on the trees, please leave them as removing them won't help the issue. Only our voices, letters, meetings and the help of news reporters to get the information out to the public will help. Again, we say thank you to Wendy Howell of Williams-Grand Canyon News who attended the meeting and is now informed on the seriousness of this issue not only to us in the Red Lake area but to other property owners that are adjacent or near State Land parcels that are vulnerable to massive land clearing by the Department of Forestry Fire & Management.

Let's keep our eyes and ears open, remain united in hopes of receiving the very best and effective fire mitigation measures that will enhance our safety while at the same time protecting the beauty of our neighborhood and the wildlife that lives here.

We thank everyone that took the time to attend the meeting including those that drove for several hours to be present. 

Please feel free to contact us with any questions. Rest assured that we will keep you updated and informed.

We wish everyone a very nice Christmas and Happy New Year!

Robert Grossman, President

Red Lake Estates Unit 1 POA